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Does exactly what it says on the tin. Some of the nonsense contained herein may be very loosely related to The Sisters of Mercy, but I wouldn't bet your PayPal account on it. In keeping with the internet's general theme nothing written here should be taken as Gospel: over three quarters of it is utter gibberish, and most of the forum's denizens haven't spoken to another human being face-to-face for decades. Don't worry your pretty little heads about it. Above all else, remember this: You don't have to stay forever. I will understand.
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markfiend
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markfiend wrote:
LouLou wrote:... the hysterical attention seekers who have more or less monopolised the title 'feminist', replaced gender equality ideals with bitter misandry, corrupted the very essence of the feminist philosophy which your quote so elegantly captures, and alienated a sizeable chunk of the population whose rights they claim to advocate. ...
Yeah the funny thing is, I've never met, or even heard of, anyone who is genuinely like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
I've realised: it's a bit ironic (you might even say patriarchical) for me (a man) to be lecturing to women on the subject of feminism. I'm sorry about that LouLou.

I'll shut up. :urff:
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sultan2075
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markfiend wrote:
LouLou wrote:... the hysterical attention seekers who have more or less monopolised the title 'feminist', replaced gender equality ideals with bitter misandry, corrupted the very essence of the feminist philosophy which your quote so elegantly captures, and alienated a sizeable chunk of the population whose rights they claim to advocate. ...
Yeah the funny thing is, I've never met, or even heard of, anyone who is genuinely like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
One of my first teaching jobs was at a woman's college. Let me tell you: those people do exist, and they are Obnoxious As Hell.
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside.
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LouLou wrote:particularly when you consider that some women say that they are not feminists simply because they want to dissociate themselves from the hysterical attention seekers who have more or less monopolised the title 'feminist', replaced gender equality ideals with bitter misandry, corrupted the very essence of the feminist philosophy which your quote so elegantly captures, and alienated a sizeable chunk of the population whose rights they claim to advocate.

that does not make them any less of a human being.


not convinced?

in that case i'm one happy, proud doormat ;D
Ok, I’ll bite. There may have been some irony in that last statement, but I suspect not nearly enough. Have we really come to a point where a clearly intelligent young woman is happier to call herself a doormat than a feminist? I am truly Depressed Beyond Tablets.

I will proudly identify as a feminist, but I think there is a serious problem with the word “feminism�, which has perhaps served to discourage many people over the years – men and women – from looking into the movement in any depth. Because it refers to one gender, it could understandably be seen to be pro-female and anti-male. But the most lazy examination of the bulk of feminist literature (yes, I’m aware there are exceptions, though many of the most famous “feminazi� quotes from Dworkin and the like have not only been taken out of context but literally rephrased) reveals a desire to achieve various definitions of equality – not to assert some kind of superiority. I am not saying there are no people like that on the planet who shelter under the umbrella of feminism... but that is just the thing, it is a massive umbrella.

These man-haters you and sultan talk about... I must say, I’m wondering where they are all hiding as well. I am friends with a number of feminist activists (male and female), and far from being anti-male, I don’t know any people who are more tolerant of every conceivable manifestation of gender that the human race can throw up. Feminists generally try to look beyond the gender binary – which kind of makes it impossible to hate a group of people that they define in far more fluid terms than most. The women who groan that “men are all pigsâ€� are usually a million miles from being feminists. On the contrary, I would argue that they have internalized the discourses of inequality which paint socially constructed injustices as entirely biologically predestined... “naturalâ€� and inevitable. “Men are s**t€� is the flipside of the “Boys will be Boysâ€� coin. All the feminists I know like to give men a little bit more credit – believing that much of the piggishness that some display is the product of nurture rather than nature. We recognise a common, human nature.

The word “misandry� has become rather too fashionable to throw around (along with “feminazis� :roll: ), to silence and discredit any woman who suggests that there is still much progress to be made, or who dares to be angry about anything – no matter how valid that anger may be. While a man’s anger or indignation can be righteous and noble, there is a rich history of female rage being written off as “hysterical� hyperventilation, belittled, dismissed and even pathologized. And it’s not a male conspiracy – like most of the prejudices women face, it requires us to maintain it just as much as it requires unreconstructed chauvinist dudes.

I think it’s important to point out that feminism is not just for women – it is about improving the relationship between the genders, not just making life better for women at men’s expense. Don’t fall for the illusion that this is a zero sum game. Cartoonish gender roles restrict and damage men as well.

To caricature feminists as rabid man-haters (or even closet ones) is like lumping the entire Civil Rights movement and all modern racial equality organizations and campaigners with the most radical members of the Nation Of Islam and the Black Panthers. Wanting equality and respect is not “misandry�, and being angry about not having it... still isn’t. There is a lot to be angry about – hate is another thing entirely. It is true that Bidisha, Germaine Greer and other prominent meedja feminists do sometimes go for polemic punch over intellectual rigour, but show me a journalist who doesn’t! There is a difference between genuine inverse prejudice and human beings allowing the clarity of their arguments to be occasionally clouded by emotion when they speak about issues that have affected them deeply and personally. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to see an angry woman saying something about gender and immedately brush her argument aside.

I used to think in a similar way to you until my early 20’s – not to the same extent, but I had serious misgivings about feminism. I was not aware of experiencing any problems that were gender-specific... I did not feel I had suffered for being female. But I have since had a couple of rude awakenings. I was threatened with sexual violence and also developed a health problem, just one of the upshots of which was that I may not be able to have children (though I’m not sure I ever had any genuine desire to). Things like this bring home the reality of issues which can seem abstract, overplayed, redundant. You become painfully aware of what is expected of you as a female of the species. It’s not a problem if you can fulfil the roles assigned to you. As in many other areas of life, it is easy to remain blissfully unaware of the inequalities inherent in the status quo, of injustices which are more subtle than the brutal murder of prostitutes and things of that magnitude, until you are forced into a position where you have no choice but to consider your place in the world. Some are born feminist, some become feminist, some have feminism thrust upon them.

Post-feminsm is a dangerous kind of complacency, based on the story that in the Sixties and Seventies we got the Pill and the Equal Pay Act (yet to be fully enforced, but it’s the thought that counts eh?), now all is well. A thin veneer of equality has convinced a generation (mine, unfortunately), that we’ve made all the advances we need to, and to continue to question things is just being pernickety. I beg to differ.
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quiet night Claire, shouldn't you be doing the washing up? ;D
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LouLou
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sultan2075 wrote:
markfiend wrote:
LouLou wrote:... the hysterical attention seekers who have more or less monopolised the title 'feminist', replaced gender equality ideals with bitter misandry, corrupted the very essence of the feminist philosophy which your quote so elegantly captures, and alienated a sizeable chunk of the population whose rights they claim to advocate. ...
Yeah the funny thing is, I've never met, or even heard of, anyone who is genuinely like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
One of my first teaching jobs was at a woman's college. Let me tell you: those people do exist, and they are Obnoxious As Hell.
yes, sadly they do :(

@markfiend - it's great to hear that you have so far been blissfully unaware of their existence, which is probably why you continue to have faith in the feminist movement. i too did, in a previous life. now i'm too disillusioned to care.
I've realised: it's a bit ironic (you might even say patriarchical) for me (a man) to be lecturing to women on the subject of feminism. I'm sorry about that LouLou.
i really haven't got the foggiest where you got this from. i'm sorry if there was anything in my tone even remotely suggesting that men are not qualified to enter a civilised debate about feminism. that wasn't my intention. for what it's worth, i think that the exclusion of men from the discourse is one of the reasons it's turned into a the charade it is now.

what strikes me, however, is that the reaction you describe is precisely what i would expect from the people i described in my previous post - the people whose existence you claim to have escaped your attention.
I'll shut up.
i never said that. and i am very offended that you would even think i would.



edit - bloody spelling mistakes! :urff:
Last edited by LouLou on 24 Sep 2010, 00:17, edited 2 times in total.
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James Blast
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I've PMd fiendy because I think my reply/riposte might get me banned :|
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LouLou
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:?:
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MadameButterfly
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James Blast wrote:I've PMd fiendy because I think my reply/riposte might get me banned :|
Yes! How very dare you! Claire never needs to wash up! :wink:

And the next bloke that puts us in the kitchen will have his arse burnt on open fire! :twisted:
here we go again....
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Being645
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LouLou wrote: i think that the exclusion of men from the discourse is one of the reasons it's turned into a the charade it is now.
:wink: ... it's not as much of a charade as you might think. At EU-level, gender mainstreaming is clearly an important part of the agenda ... ...
Last edited by Being645 on 23 Sep 2010, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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LouLou
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some would argue that the EU itself is a charade, but i'm not going anywhere near that debate.
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James Blast
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MadameButterfly wrote:
James Blast wrote:I've PMd fiendy because I think my reply/riposte might get me banned :|
Yes! How very dare you! Claire never needs to wash up! :wink:

And the next bloke that puts us in the kitchen will have his arse burnt on open fire! :twisted:
you don't have a fuckin' scooby, doo ya? :|
"And when you start to think about death, you start to think about what's after it. And then you start hoping there is a God. For me, it's a frightening thought to go nowhere".
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MadameButterfly
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look...man goes out to hunt. brings home kill to eat. woman has had fire ready and waiting... unskinning and defeatheration take place...

kill is cooked...man & woman feed and so do young ones..

woman thanks man, man goes down on woman.

sex is had again and again.

all is happy and sound in the morning when man goes hunting again.

:wink: ;D
here we go again....
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I was richt, ye don't have a scooby
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Being645
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LouLou wrote:some would argue that the EU itself is a charade, but i'm not going anywhere near that debate.
... :D ... yeah , some clearly would. And various things are definitely debatable (like the sizes of fruit and such stuff) ...
nonetheless there are also a few good things done at the EU ... as contrary to what happens in member states ...
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Being645
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MadameButterfly wrote:look...man goes out to hunt. brings home kill to eat. woman has had fire ready and waiting... unskinning and defeatheration take place...

kill is cooked...man & woman feed and so do young ones..

woman thanks man, man goes down on woman.

sex is had again and again.

all is happy and sound in the morning when man goes hunting again.

:wink: ;D
Hell, I'm glad I don't have to life like that.
But for those who like it ... go on, please ... :D ...
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LouLou
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Being645 wrote:
LouLou wrote:some would argue that the EU itself is a charade, but i'm not going anywhere near that debate.
... :D ... yeah , some clearly would. And various things are definitely debatable (like the sizes of fruit and such stuff) ...
nonetheless there are also a few good things done at the EU ... as contrary to what happens in member states ...
oi!

i want my fruit and veg to be picture perfect, thank you! there's nothing debatable about that! :lol:
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Being645
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LouLou wrote:
Being645 wrote:
LouLou wrote:some would argue that the EU itself is a charade, but i'm not going anywhere near that debate.
... :D ... yeah , some clearly would. And various things are definitely debatable (like the sizes of fruit and such stuff) ...
nonetheless there are also a few good things done at the EU ... as contrary to what happens in member states ...
oi!

i want my fruit and veg to be picture perfect, thank you! there's nothing debatable about that! :lol:
... :lol: ... I should have known ... :lol: ...
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MadameButterfly
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Being645 wrote:
MadameButterfly wrote:look...man goes out to hunt. brings home kill to eat. woman has had fire ready and waiting... unskinning and defeatheration take place...

kill is cooked...man & woman feed and so do young ones..

woman thanks man, man goes down on woman.

sex is had again and again.

all is happy and sound in the morning when man goes hunting again.

:wink: ;D
Hell, I'm glad I don't have to life like that.
But for those who like it ... go on, please ... :D ...
:lol: No that was back in the ages! :lol:

These days it's if you don't do what I want you can always leave... :wink:

Or in the thaang of this thread... Don't like it just f**k off. :D
here we go again....
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MadameButterfly
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James Blast wrote:I was richt, ye don't have a scooby
Never have, never will.
here we go again....
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Big Si
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Anyone fancy a pint?

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"An 'orrible Kant!"

"oh!!! PISH!" - RIP, Jam~es Blaast 1958-2016
RIP Molly "The Mum" Gallagher 1921-2018

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LouLou
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is it lite?
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Big Si
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LouLou wrote:is it lite?
:eek:

How dare you! That's a pint of finest Czech bier :P
"An 'orrible Kant!"

"oh!!! PISH!" - RIP, Jam~es Blaast 1958-2016
RIP Molly "The Mum" Gallagher 1921-2018

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MadameButterfly
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i've stopped smoking and now drink beer! :roll:

yes please Big Si! :D
here we go again....
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LouLou
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Big Si wrote:
LouLou wrote:is it lite?
:eek:

How dare you! That's a pint of finest Czech bier :P
in that case i'll stick to voddy and diet coke.

much more ladylike :wink:
Last edited by LouLou on 23 Sep 2010, 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Being645
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I go on with smoking ... and coffee ... ;D ...
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