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Re: re:

Posted: 17 Nov 2019, 10:38
by GC
Ocean Moves wrote:
markfiend wrote:
hippie-bullsh-t-hater wrote:yes but Von doesnt want to work with wayne. Von didnt even want Wayne at a concert guestlist, ha ha
This is it isn't it.

I feel a bit sorry for Wayne, he keeps trying, but surely he knows by now that it's never going to happen?
Upon reading "Salad Daze", the biggest and perhaps strangest admission by Wayne, for me, was that
the only time he ever felt "cool" was when playing for the Sisters. To me that's quite an
admission by someone who went on the have a fairly long and successful career as a singer/guitarist in their OWN band.

This section of the book covering the Sisters is peppered with tiny stabs at Von,
either direct or indirect, and neglects (to my mind) to really introduce Vons background.
It is perhaps the least neutrally portrayed section of the entire book.
This suggests to me he still has a chip on his shoulder regarding the existence of the Sisters and his
(non) participation in it.

Others may see it differently.
I kind of agree...Wayne is quite ambigous. He sometimes writes with a certain warmth about Von and then in the next sentence can be quite scathing (tiny stabs as you say). I would probably say that this is a fairly accurate (external) view of AE....although the complexity of the man and his art is rarely touched upon. I think in many respects Wayne wanted to make him(AE) happy and be a major part of the band but there was no place. Thus the breakup....

What I do gather though in reading Wayne's account is that you can see that making records was a nightmare for AE that's why he is now probably happier without them.

Re: re:

Posted: 17 Nov 2019, 23:06
by Ocean Moves
GC wrote:
Ocean Moves wrote:
markfiend wrote:This is it isn't it.

I feel a bit sorry for Wayne, he keeps trying, but surely he knows by now that it's never going to happen?
Upon reading "Salad Daze", the biggest and perhaps strangest admission by Wayne, for me, was that
the only time he ever felt "cool" was when playing for the Sisters. To me that's quite an
admission by someone who went on the have a fairly long and successful career as a singer/guitarist in their OWN band.

This section of the book covering the Sisters is peppered with tiny stabs at Von,
either direct or indirect, and neglects (to my mind) to really introduce Vons background.
It is perhaps the least neutrally portrayed section of the entire book.
This suggests to me he still has a chip on his shoulder regarding the existence of the Sisters and his
(non) participation in it.

Others may see it differently.
I kind of agree...Wayne is quite ambigous. He sometimes writes with a certain warmth about Von and then in the next sentence can be quite scathing (tiny stabs as you say). I would probably say that this is a fairly accurate (external) view of AE....although the complexity of the man and his art is rarely touched upon. I think in many respects Wayne wanted to make him(AE) happy and be a major part of the band but there was no place. Thus the breakup....

What I do gather though in reading Wayne's account is that you can see that making records was a nightmare for AE that's why he is now probably happier without them.
I read it all as partly a personality clash. Wayne seems warm, impulsive, fun loving, emotional,
but not intellectual. Von has always come across to me as quite disciplined, organised, calculating
(to the point of appearing controlling), intellectual and less of a people person.
Von took the success of Sisters seriously, and took on much of the work of making the early records himself.
Wayne and Craig on the other hand, wanted to have fun and be in a cool band.
Wayne's contribution to the song writing for the first album is beyond doubt.
It's one of those great partnerships in music that comes along every now and again; Wayne's music provided the emotional and melancholic soundtrack,
and Von's lyric writing provided an intellectual angle and depth to the songs.

In my view, Von's propensity to take control sometimes limits what the Sisters have
created overall. But that's just the way he is.

Posted: 18 Nov 2019, 07:06
by Bartek
This, this is the way it was
This, this is the way it is
I can make my opinion based on interviews, and I could come to pretty much the same conclusions of both men.
Anyhow, let the past belong to its place.

Re: re:

Posted: 03 Aug 2020, 06:59
by Ocean Moves
Ocean Moves wrote:
17 Nov 2019, 23:06
GC wrote:
Ocean Moves wrote:
Upon reading "Salad Daze", the biggest and perhaps strangest admission by Wayne, for me, was that
the only time he ever felt "cool" was when playing for the Sisters. To me that's quite an
admission by someone who went on the have a fairly long and successful career as a singer/guitarist in their OWN band.

This section of the book covering the Sisters is peppered with tiny stabs at Von,
either direct or indirect, and neglects (to my mind) to really introduce Vons background.
It is perhaps the least neutrally portrayed section of the entire book.
This suggests to me he still has a chip on his shoulder regarding the existence of the Sisters and his
(non) participation in it.

Others may see it differently.
I kind of agree...Wayne is quite ambigous. He sometimes writes with a certain warmth about Von and then in the next sentence can be quite scathing (tiny stabs as you say). I would probably say that this is a fairly accurate (external) view of AE....although the complexity of the man and his art is rarely touched upon. I think in many respects Wayne wanted to make him(AE) happy and be a major part of the band but there was no place. Thus the breakup....

What I do gather though in reading Wayne's account is that you can see that making records was a nightmare for AE that's why he is now probably happier without them.
I read it all as partly a personality clash. Wayne seems warm, impulsive, fun loving, emotional,
but not intellectual. Von has always come across to me as quite disciplined, organised, calculating
(to the point of appearing controlling), intellectual and less of a people person.
Von took the success of Sisters seriously, and took on much of the work of making the early records himself.
Wayne and Craig on the other hand, wanted to have fun and be in a cool band.
Wayne's contribution to the song writing for the first album is beyond doubt.
It's one of those great partnerships in music that comes along every now and again; Wayne's music provided the emotional and melancholic soundtrack,
and Von's lyric writing provided an intellectual angle and depth to the songs.

In my view, Von's propensity to take control sometimes limits what the Sisters have
created overall. But that's just the way he is.
1) Wayne is still bitter about not being recognised as an integral part of the
artist achievements of the sisters, during the pre-85 period
(such bitterness tends towards a personality slur aimed at Andrew in Salad Daze)

2) Andrew's collaborations have more often than not yielded some of their
best overall work. The Singles on Floodland being an obvious example.

3) Wayne probably was one of the best if not the best guitarist the band
has ever had.

4) Lack of collaboration in the bands recent period (pretty much anything
2000 until 2018) has resulted in... not very much.
Perhaps the recent collaborative writing work with Dylan will turn that around.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 03 Aug 2020, 11:28
by mh
The point about collaboration seems reasonable and accurate to me. There's also an argument to be made that Von needs to shake up his collaborators every now and then to keep things fresh. So while Wayne's time in the band was fruitful, by the time he left it had probably run it's natural course. The answer to "what the Sisters would had sounded like had Wayne stayed" might well be "not very good".

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 03 Aug 2020, 11:41
by eastmidswhizzkid
i was just listening to Gathering Dust and its fair to say that Gary Marx's new songs for the second album would have been pure Sister gold. :von:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 03 Aug 2020, 14:01
by Swinnow
mh wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 11:28
The point about collaboration seems reasonable and accurate to me. There's also an argument to be made that Von needs to shake up his collaborators every now and then to keep things fresh. So while Wayne's time in the band was fruitful, by the time he left it had probably run it's natural course. The answer to "what the Sisters would had sounded like had Wayne stayed" might well be "not very good".
Many 'close to the band' seem to agree that Wayne was asked to stay on and contribute guitars to Von's new ideas.

Stretching various strands of the story now, but could La Huss' experience of guitar lines becoming samples in his Pete Burns years have coloured his view of such a working arrangement. Doubtless the whole FALAA studio experience was probably not one that he would be in a rush to repeat.

For those who don't have it already, grab the Gathering Dust upload referred to by EMWK. Some belters there. The best bits of that plus the best bits of First Chapter/GOM might have been tasty.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 03 Aug 2020, 18:11
by eastmidswhizzkid
Swinnow wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 14:01
The best bits of that plus the best bits of First Chapter/GOM might have been tasty.
i love the songs on the first 2 m*****n 12"". what's not to like? :von:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 04 Aug 2020, 03:49
by Ocean Moves
eastmidswhizzkid wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 18:11
Swinnow wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 14:01
The best bits of that plus the best bits of First Chapter/GOM might have been tasty.
i love the songs on the first 2 m*****n 12"". what's not to like? :von:
Personally I like "The First Chapter" as a record, but only a few tracks on GOM.
For me, GOM is already falling over itself with daft pop aspirations before the band had established any sincerity.

"Children" was the only other record I liked.

As for Wayne leaving, Salad Daze describes Craig chucking a fit over the new material Von wrote, and then the rest happened.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 04 Aug 2020, 10:02
by timsinister
...and Eldritch did ask Wayne if he'd contribute to the third album, even after Wayne said he was going to go join Craig. The rancour clearly set in around the Sisterhood shenanigans, and when it was clearly such a boon to their projects to feud through the media!

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 04 Aug 2020, 11:14
by Swinnow
The 'rancour' was the only card Von had to play at the time and his publicity conscious ex-bandmates, or ex-employees as he possibly viewed them at the time, leapt upon this opportunity that had been gifted.

Did anyone ever uncover evidence of the trials of other band members singing that allegedly took place abroad?

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 04 Aug 2020, 21:30
by Nikolas Vitus Lagartija
timsinister wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 10:02
...and Eldritch did ask Wayne if he'd contribute to the third album, even after Wayne said he was going to go join Craig. The rancour clearly set in around the Sisterhood shenanigans, and when it was clearly such a boon to their projects to feud through the media!
This was all covered in the Mass Murder fanzine interview from the end of 1985 that I mentioned in the blog post below. It seems that Wayne thought that Andrew was planning to release his new songs under the name Andrew Eldritch and that he and Craig could therefore record as "The Sisters" (soon amended to "The SIsterhood" ). Had Andrew been planning to continue with the TSOM name, Wayne would have been happy to contribute and the name feud would likely never have happened according to this contemporary account of events.

http://sistersfan.blogspot.com/2019/02/ ... -pt-3.html

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 05 Aug 2020, 18:48
by TheGoodSon
Hussey apparently enjoys writing, recording and releasing music. Can’t really see what he would get out of working with Von.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 07:39
by timsinister
Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 21:30
timsinister wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 10:02
...and Eldritch did ask Wayne if he'd contribute to the third album, even after Wayne said he was going to go join Craig. The rancour clearly set in around the Sisterhood shenanigans, and when it was clearly such a boon to their projects to feud through the media!
This was all covered in the Mass Murder fanzine interview from the end of 1985 that I mentioned in the blog post below. It seems that Wayne thought that Andrew was planning to release his new songs under the name Andrew Eldritch and that he and Craig could therefore record as "The Sisters" (soon amended to "The SIsterhood" ). Had Andrew been planning to continue with the TSOM name, Wayne would have been happy to contribute and the name feud would likely never have happened according to this contemporary account of events.

http://sistersfan.blogspot.com/2019/02/ ... -pt-3.html
Nice work as always Nik, thanks for this! :notworthy:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 14:23
by eastmidswhizzkid
Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 21:30
timsinister wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 10:02
...and Eldritch did ask Wayne if he'd contribute to the third album, even after Wayne said he was going to go join Craig. The rancour clearly set in around the Sisterhood shenanigans, and when it was clearly such a boon to their projects to feud through the media!
This was all covered in the Mass Murder fanzine interview from the end of 1985 that I mentioned in the blog post below. It seems that Wayne thought that Andrew was planning to release his new songs under the name Andrew Eldritch and that he and Craig could therefore record as "The Sisters" (soon amended to "The SIsterhood" ). Had Andrew been planning to continue with the TSOM name, Wayne would have been happy to contribute and the name feud would likely never have happened according to this contemporary account of events.

http://sistersfan.blogspot.com/2019/02/ ... -pt-3.html
am i the only one who would love to see all of Niks posts from his "sistersfan" blog compiled and published in hard copy? i doubt i am.... :von:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 18:53
by Being645
eastmidswhizzkid wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 14:23
Nikolas Vitus Lagartija wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 21:30
timsinister wrote:
04 Aug 2020, 10:02
...and Eldritch did ask Wayne if he'd contribute to the third album, even after Wayne said he was going to go join Craig. The rancour clearly set in around the Sisterhood shenanigans, and when it was clearly such a boon to their projects to feud through the media!
This was all covered in the Mass Murder fanzine interview from the end of 1985 that I mentioned in the blog post below. It seems that Wayne thought that Andrew was planning to release his new songs under the name Andrew Eldritch and that he and Craig could therefore record as "The Sisters" (soon amended to "The SIsterhood" ). Had Andrew been planning to continue with the TSOM name, Wayne would have been happy to contribute and the name feud would likely never have happened according to this contemporary account of events.

http://sistersfan.blogspot.com/2019/02/ ... -pt-3.html
am i the only one who would love to see all of Niks posts from his "sistersfan" blog compiled and published in hard copy? i doubt i am.... :von:
You are not alone... :bat: :notworthy: :bat: ...
A book is so much more convenient to lean back with and just thumb through it ... :D ...
I'm often so fed up with staring at whatever a screen ... *sigh ...

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 18:58
by Swinnow
A green screen often feels more appropriate for looking at Sisters "news". :lol:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 19:01
by Quiff Boy
Parchment

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 17 Aug 2020, 19:16
by Pista
:lol:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 20 Aug 2020, 04:18
by Dust Witch
Quiff Boy wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 19:01
Parchment
Vellum. Let's keep it high brow.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 20 Aug 2020, 09:43
by Quiff Boy
d0gbones wrote:
20 Aug 2020, 04:18
Quiff Boy wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 19:01
Parchment
Vellum. Let's keep it high brow.
:lol: :notworthy:

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 21 Aug 2020, 14:57
by zaltys7
i'm sure I read here or elsewhere that Craig walked after hearing Von's demo's for Torch.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 21 Aug 2020, 18:08
by mh
From Wayne's book:
I sneaked a peek at Craig during playback and knew him well enough to know that there was a dark cloud forming on his brow. We alighted on one of the songs to try first. ‘Torch’, I think it was.

Andrew had written a few snatches of lyrics that he mumbled into the microphone while Craig and I tried to inject a little colour, if not enthusiasm, into the rather pallid, etiolated chord sequence that Andrew had written. A storm was brewing and the atmosphere in the room was starting to feel toxic. Getting nowhere fast and attempting to keep the peace I suggested we have a go at something else.

Next up was an up-tempo bass line that Andrew had come up with which may or may not have eventually become ‘Lucretia, My Reflection’. Essentially one bass loop for an undefined length of time and played at such a tempo that it was more like a guitar line rather than bass, this was the final drop of rain that broke the dam.

Craig simply didn’t like it although, to be fair to him, it did have a different groove at that point and required him to play it at almost twice the speed it ended up being on Floodland. The words silk purse and sow’s ear come to mind when I later heard the album version. Kudos to Von for that.

In the meantime, back in Armley, Craig was having none of it. After about ten minutes of this mindless repetition, Craig took his bass off and with a loud clatter it was flung it to the ground. I stopped playing guitar and shut the Doktor up. Andrew stopped moaning into the mic.

“That’s it, I’ve had enough, it’s f**king s**t. These are s**t songs and that’s a s**t bass line,” ranted my best friend. “I’m leaving the group, f**k off, you twit.”
This is admittedly Wayne's otherwise unsubstantiated recollection, but it is at least consistent with the story as told elsewhere (and we also do have an early demo of Lucretia as evidence that it was originally faster), so there's no reason to doubt it.

Re: Wayne wants to work with Von again!

Posted: 21 Aug 2020, 23:34
by Electrochrome
I would rank the chances of AE working with Hussey again far, far, far, far, far beyond the chances of seeing any new Sisters release ever again. Shame, despite the drama and the legends blah blah blah, it was a good mix for a moment there...