Obama vs McCain: split out from the "Happy" thread

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boudicca
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Just watching the news and I don't think the Republicans have a snowflake's chance in hell of pulling anything out the bag now, election-wise. Obama may simply be the lesser of two evils.... perhaps.... but I think we'll be a bit safer with the current shower of cretins out the White House. Plus he's a brother. It could be worse.


Just as well, what with a new Cold War just around the corner (allegedly) :eek:
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boudicca wrote:Just watching the news and I don't think the Republicans have a snowflake's chance in hell of pulling anything out the bag now, election-wise. Obama may simply be the lesser of two evils.... perhaps.... but I think we'll be a bit safer with the current shower of cretins out the White House. Plus he's a brother. It could be worse.


Just as well, what with a new Cold War just around the corner (allegedly) :eek:
I'm not usually one to argue, but... :innocent:
...between now and the election people are going to wake up to the idea that for all Obama bangs on about "change" he's being very vague on exactly what change is, what he's going to do, and how he's going to pay for it. I loathe the GOP but I would sooner see McCain in the White House - I don't like everything he stands for, but at least he appears to know what he's doing. This other guy...I'm not so sure. And choosing Biden as his VP? Oh dearie dearie me.
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Oh come on, seriously? "Noun verb POW" McCain? The man they're calling "McSame"? 100 years in Iraq?

OK I agree that Biden was not the choice I'd have preferred (Michael Moore circulated an open letter urging Obama to nominate Caroline Kennedy as his VP candidate -- now there's a ticket America could have got behind) but as Claire says, between Obama and McCain, it's the lesser of two evils.

BushCo's constant erosion of the constitution has to stop. And it won't under McCain. You know how McCain likes to remind us he was tortured while he was a POW in Vietnam? Well under the current administration's definition, what happened to McCain wasn't torture...

Personally I'd like to see Bush impeached, but after Clinton it would look too much like "you impeached our guy, now we'll impeach your guy".

McCain so senile he doesn't even know how many houses he owns. And yet Obama is the "elitist"?
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markfiend
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EvilBastard wrote:he's being very vague on exactly what change is, what he's going to do, and how he's going to pay for it.
Read, learn, inwardly digest.

Just because Fox News wants to paint Obama as vague, you'll swallow it hook, line and sinker?

*Edit: Sorry, it's probably unfair to suggest that's where you've based your opinion from. I'll leave it in for the sake of honesty though. :oops:
Last edited by markfiend on 29 Aug 2008, 16:53, edited 1 time in total.
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boudicca
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A split thread? :eek: Crikey, there goes me and my big ranting mouth :lol: :oops:
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boudicca wrote:A split thread? :eek: Crikey, there goes me and my big ranting mouth :lol: :oops:
Ah no, it's me. I'm interested in keeping this going, and I didn't want to see it drown under the weight of the "currently happy" thread.
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Having been slighty out of the loop regarding current affairs for a while (though no ones fault but my own) I won't claim I've read either candidates manifesto word for word.

While I would always see the democrat party as the lesser of the two evils (based on the parties that previous presidents have affilated with) and I would always go with the party that wasn't lead by a warmongering conservitive there is also the fact Obama seems to be the right thing, an advocate of change - and let's be honest, any change in the states would be a good thing right now.

There is also the fact that he's black. If America can get past its deeply ingrained bigotries and vote in the best man for the job, even though he's black then I think, as a nation, it will start to move forward again. I have to say I'm cynical, I don't dare hope Obama will win simpley because a huge part of me believes that the American populous would choose old white guy over young black guy even if it was Hitler vs Martin Luther King.
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McCain's got him a female running mate... Cashing in on Hillary not being elected? No way :lol:

Anyhoo, I don't trust those Americans, I don't trust the way they campaign. Let's just hope they're not daft enough to actually elect McCain as their next chief but I wouldn't be that surprised.

It does worry me how it seems colour still is such an issue there, I mean has anyone else read the articles about how white people would no longer be the majority in the mid-2000s? I think it was even their caucus bureau that announced that, as if it'd be some kind of scare.

I'll just cross my fingers for the sane ones that are left there between the nutters...
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I would sooner see McCain in the White House with any dubs
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taylor -I suggest you delete your post.
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It's ":eek: Must.. Shock!", I guess.
Manson is better at that, actually.
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Looks like the mods forgot everything else while creating the swear filter, so intent were they on beeping out the word "m*****n" :innocent: :lol:
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I'm a massive supporter of Obama. Perhaps it's naive wishful thinking masquerading as faith and perhaps experience should have taught me not to put my hope in politicians promising a brighter future, but after eight years of that evil bastard Bush (and I'm not throwing words around there; I use the word 'evil' quite deliberately), the USA - and the world - could do with a little hope. McCain won't provide that hope. McCain won't diminish the hatred that the world feels towards the US government, he won't make the world less dangerous than Bush has left it, not with his bellicose attitude towards Iran, not with his vision of a 100 year long US presence in Iraq. McCain won't halt the rightward march of social policy in the USA, not with his vehemently anti-abortion stance, not with his inflexible opposition to gay marriage, not with his support for the pro-gun lobby. More of the same or a real chance to work towards a better society? I know which one I'd rather have. I just hope the citizens of the USA feel the same and, come November 4th, vote to put Barack Obama in the White House.

Amen :lol:
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As a US citizen ( :oops: and not proud of it), I thought I's throw my 2 cents in here. Come November, I'll do what I usually do...see who the rich establishment members decide to choose as their pawn. It's sad that the American people do not get to elect their president, yet the government claims to be a democracy. That whole for the people, by the people bs we're fed. Winning the popular vote means absolutely nothing. Now, as far as McCain goes...he's too old & conservative. However, that is what appeals to the big business/right wing religious millionaires who ultimately decide the election. Obama faces a tough time ahead. Alot of African-Americans do not like the fact that he was raised in the "white" world. If he is "elected", you can be sure that some ignorant a**hole will take a shot at him, simply because of his race. Sad, but true. Personally, I think Obama's a bit more conservative than he lets on. He'll have a hard time getting the vote of one of the biggest communities here...the LGBT. His recent comment that marriage is between a man & a woman probably cost him supporters. As for his running mate, I'm sure he was picked with Obama's assassination in mind. In the event of that happening, "they" would want somebody easy to control and that translates to "no Hillary". US citizens are screwed, no matter what.
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Both candidates have strong connections to the industry. Joseph Biden is a hardcore "intellectual property" lobbyist, who I have no sympathy for at all, as an open-source, free software fanboi.
I think the Democrats might be a teensy-weensy bit the better choice than the other fukcers but then again, that idiotic Obama-show is getting on my nerves so badly (and I don't even follow it, just reading the news is enough), I'm now hoping McCain wins, just to restore a little bit of sobriety to the American political scene, and just out of malicious spite. Not that I hold much hope for that; for sobriety, that is. Smear campaigns and all that, disgusting. Thankfully, I'm not suffering from the delusion that the choice of who will "win" would make any difference. Both are somewhat better than Bush+Cheney, however, both are financed by the same lobby, so whatever.
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Obama? -Yupp. I hope for the sake of all of us he´ll win.
With the current government and the one that I´d expect from Mc Caine I think we have a situation of "No matter where you run, just get away here." :wink:
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That´s more or less a gang war to me, actually.
Carlyle Group vs. Russian Mafia, if you like.
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McCain is handing to Obama with his choice of Sarah Palin for running mate :lol:
  • She won't bring in Clinton's supporters because she's anti-abortion.
  • She disables the attacks on Obama's lack of experience because she doesn't have any either.
  • She's rich.
  • She disables the attacks on Michelle Obama for following the campaign trail because she's got small children, including a baby with Down's.
  • Her lack of experience counts especially because McCain is old and not in the best of health.
  • She supports the teaching of creationism in schools.
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It don't really matter who's in the pigeon s**t house.

i don't support democracy nor civilization.

Bring it all down.

Maybe i'd like to see the hidden hand destroyed but it would help but little.

Hail Barbarism!

Anyone who votes is part of the problem to me. Everything's so f**ked up it wouldn't make a difference if even i was the president. One "good" man can do absolutely nothing in this mess.
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itnAklipse wrote:It don't really matter who's in the pigeon s**t house.

i don't support democracy nor civilization.

Bring it all down.

Maybe i'd like to see the hidden hand destroyed but it would help but little.

Hail Barbarism!

Anyone who votes is part of the problem to me. Everything's so f**ked up it wouldn't make a difference if even i was the president. One "good" man can do absolutely nothing in this mess.
Your conspiracy theories and studied affectation of an anti-civilisation stance are very cool and trendy, and I'm sure they win you lots of kudos with ignorant adolescents.

The most ironic thing, though, is that your alleged position (I say "alleged" because I don't think you really believe what you're saying) is one that could only be born out of a life of privilege and western civilisation that you so ardently claim to hate.

While it's in no way perfect, current western civilisation would be regarded as almost like heaven in the eyes of people just a few hundred years ago - or indeed in the eyes of some present day people living just several hundred miles from it: no starvation, many fatal diseases eradicated and many more treatable...

So, you can keep professing your ill-thought-out privileged musings, or you could actually think about things intelligently. Sadly I think you'll opt for the former.
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dei: are you honestly trying to say you don't think the last 8 years would have been any different if Al Gore had won in 2000?
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markfiend wrote:McCain is handing to Obama with his choice of Sarah Palin for running mate :lol:
  • She won't bring in Clinton's supporters because she's anti-abortion.
  • She disables the attacks on Obama's lack of experience because she doesn't have any either.
  • She's rich.
  • She disables the attacks on Michelle Obama for following the campaign trail because she's got small children, including a baby with Down's.
  • Her lack of experience counts especially because McCain is old and not in the best of health.
  • She supports the teaching of creationism in schools.
I'm going to put on my political science hat, Mark.

Judging by the local (i.e., American) reaction, a lot of Clinton supporters are turning toward McCain. Rightly or wrongly, a lot of them view the Obama campaign and the American media as having behaved in a fundamentally misogynist manner toward her during the primaries. Sure, some Clinton supporters will not support a pro-life candidate no matter what, but others think that breaking the glass ceiling is much more important. Palin's comment that Clinton created "18 million cracks" in the glass ceiling has been very well received by a lot of Clinton voters. Additionally, the Obama campaign has not moved very quickly to fulfill their promises to help retire the Clinton campaign debt. She will do the bare minimum to keep up appearances, all the while planning to run again in 2012 on the "I told you so" platform in the Dem primary. Bill has already become a bit of an anti-Obama loose cannon as well, and it's pretty clear that he's very angry about the primary, still.

As for the experience issue, she has one thing that neither Obama, Biden, nor McCain actually have, namely, executive experience (which is relevant to an executive position). She has been mayor of a small town, governor of a large state that borders Canada (and, in the winter, Russia :) ), and been involved in running a commercial fishing operation. For the executive side of the equation, she has more experience than anyone else (historically, when Senators run for president, they lose against governors, etc, because of this lack of relevant experience. The Senate is designed to move slowly and deliberately, and therefore to require different virtues than the executive branch, which must be flexible, and in the words of the Federalist "energetic").

She is wealthy, though my understanding is that it is not excessively so. Her husband works as a commercial fisherman and a roughneck, from what I gather, and while both of those positions would bring in a lot of money (because they are both dangerous jobs), I don't think money will be much of an issue in relation to her. Their family came by their wealth through hard work: he's an Eskimo and she's a middle class kid. They both worked their way up in the world, and that will resonate with a a lot of Americans.

I'm not sure how she disables the attacks on Michelle because she has a family. The attacks on Michelle have largely focused on alleged lack of patriotism and cronyism in relation to her hospital position.

On the experience issue, this is a legitimate problem. That being said, the inexperience factor is mitigated by the fact that she is in the understudy, not the lead position.

Finally, on the creationism issue, she has said "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum." That's hardly the same thing as advocating the teaching of creationism.

For the record, I would be much more comfortable with McCain or Clinton than with Obama, for the simple fact that I think (to use a timely example) neither Clinton nor McCain will be out of their league if they have to sit down at the negotiating table across from Vladimir Putin. I am afraid that if Obama were put in that position, old Vlad would eat him for lunch. I will honestly be very surprised if Obama wins in the fall. I think that the Democrats have made a mistake in nominating him. At this point, and for the last few months, "Generic Democrat" has been polling at about 20 points above any Republican. Obama, however, is in a statistical dead-heat with McCain (i.e., any differences are within the margin of error for the poll). He is under-performing the polls. I think this election would have been Hillary's to take. Obama can still win, but I think it will be very difficult. For example: in the Democratic primary, Clinton won a number of the large states that a Democrat has to carry in order to make it to the White House. That suggests that Obama will have an uphill fight in these states, and since most of them are blue collar states to begin with, the combination of former POW with pretty-lady-who-hunts-moose-and-is-married-to-a-roughneck-snowmobile-racer will be hard to beat, especially given that by September both of them will have children serving in Iraq. Obama can't afford to make mistakes, and so far, he seems to have made quite a few: calling rural, conservative voters "bitter" and saying that's why they "cling to God and guns;" giving a campaign speech in Berlin; and giving his Thursday night speech against the backdrop of a Greek temple combined with the Lincoln memorial. This also ignores the fact that Biden tends to shoot his mouth off at the worst possible moments. Technically, Obama has not run a good campaign so far, and he may already have passed the point of no return in terms of alienating independent voters (in this regard, Biden was a bad VP choice: he doesn't bring any new voting blocks to the ticket. He only appeals to people who would have voted for Obama anyway, and being a member of the Senate for 30 years undercuts the "change" aspect of the campaign. The choice of Palin, however, potentially brings a lot of people to the McCain camp--including social conservatives and evangelicals [who have been leery of McCain for a while], parents of disabled children [who may take comfort in having someone in high office who understands their concerns], and women [again, the glass ceiling issue]).

And let me add that this was a huge political gamble on McCain's part. Judging by the reaction it's gotten among voters, it may pay off quite well, but that doesn't make it any less of a gamble. Either way, this will be a much more interesting campaign than Dubya vs. The Ketchup Kid was.
Last edited by sultan2075 on 30 Aug 2008, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
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lazarus corporation wrote:
Your conspiracy theories and studied affectation of an anti-civilisation stance are very cool and trendy, and I'm sure they win you lots of kudos with ignorant adolescents.

The most ironic thing, though, is that your alleged position (I say "alleged" because I don't think you really believe what you're saying) is one that could only be born out of a life of privilege and western civilisation that you so ardently claim to hate.

While it's in no way perfect, current western civilisation would be regarded as almost like heaven in the eyes of people just a few hundred years ago - or indeed in the eyes of some present day people living just several hundred miles from it: no starvation, many fatal diseases eradicated and many more treatable...

So, you can keep professing your ill-thought-out privileged musings, or you could actually think about things intelligently. Sadly I think you'll opt for the former.
He's a dime-store Rousseau. Between that and the anti-semitic drivel he spouts, I've stopped taking him seriously.
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@dei: are you honestly trying to say you don't think the last 8 years would have been any different if Al Gore had won in 2000?

simply the same mate , after 2000 death at home what president should to do ? speak cordially or cruise ?
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markfiend wrote:McCain is handing to Obama with his choice of Sarah Palin for running mate :lol:
  • She won't bring in Clinton's supporters because she's anti-abortion.
  • She disables the attacks on Obama's lack of experience because she doesn't have any either.
  • She's rich.
  • She disables the attacks on Michelle Obama for following the campaign trail because she's got small children, including a baby with Down's.
  • Her lack of experience counts especially because McCain is old and not in the best of health.
  • She supports the teaching of creationism in schools.
Yeah, but she's a woman. It counters Obama being black. Gets them back in the news in the short term and ensures that if the Democrats can play the "historic" card then so can the Republicans. Now, one way or another, the outcome is going to be historic.
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(I'm not ignoring your PM Michael ;))

I'm still not convinced that Clinton supporters crossing party lines is a major issue; from what I can gather PUMA and the like are "astroturf" movements from the Repubs. Oh I'm sure a few people will be irrational enough to vote McCain simply to give Obama a bloody nose, but on the whole Clinton's supporters will come round when they realise what Palin actually stands for.

If McCain's idea is that people will switch simply because Palin is a woman, well, it's more evidence that he doesn't get it (in Obama's words). Palin is diametrically opposed to almost everything Clinton's campaign ran on; I mentioned abortion simply as an example. The idea that women will vote for a woman whatever is actually pretty insulting to women.

I think Palin actually risks alienating a large potential base of votes for McCain; I'd guess that a large proportion of the idiots who "ain't voting to put no n****r in the White House" are unlikely to vote for a ticket with a woman on it.

Palin's lack of experience will matter; remember, just two years ago she was mayor of a town with 9000 inhabitants. Governorship of Alaska isn't much in terms of experience either. It might be big in area but in terms of population it's one of the smallest states. Palin would be "just a heartbeat away" from the Presidency, and given that that heart would be McCain's the issue of his health comes into play. He's had melanomas removed, what, four times now? And I've heard reports that he's getting forgetful.

I agree that Biden isn't the best choice that Obama could have made, but Biden will surely destroy Palin in the VP debates.

I'd argue that winning the election isn't about swinging the independent voters, it's about getting your own voters actually out to vote. Given low turnout (always a given) well, no-one says in the polls that they're not going to vote do they?

Oh and on the creationism issue, she is on record as saying: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both." Given that she's also in favour of "abstinence only" sex-ed, that seems to be a contradiction, and betrays an alarming (although not unexpected for a right-wing Republican) tendency to let ideology trump reality.
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