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DancingtheGhost
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PostPost #1  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Legal or Criminal-Opinions/Advice Sought Reply with quote Back to top

Long story short....back in the middle of October, I discovered that my roommate had a fixation with online porn. While I have no problem with anyone looking at adult porn, I do have a major issue with anyone who lokks at the stuff that features children, underage teens & incest. Evil or Very Mad I didn't dare open any of the links, but from the titles I could see what they dealt with. I know looking at kiddie porn is a felony in most places in the US and probably in alot of other parts of the world. However, what happens when the content is anime or cartoon/comic style? Is this still illegal? Judging from the links he had, probably half the sites were like this. I want to report him because I think it's disgusting & he has a job that puts him in contact with children. Is my thinking wrong on this or is what he's looking at legal (the anime/cartoon/comic stuff). I know the regular stuff is definitely taboo. Opinions? Thoughts? Advice?
Thank you.
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James Blast
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PostPost #2  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

roommates are odd creatures, I knew a guy who got his knob caught in a hoover, he slipped as he was putting vaseline on a burn he got and Whoosh! the bloody thing clamped on...
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7anthea7
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PostPost #3  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Oi. This is just all kinds of wrong Sad

I do know that in most cases there has to be evidence of actual children being abused - it's virtually impossible to prove intent otherwise. Is there any social services agency you could call, just for general advice? I doubt it's a legal question at this point: you just need to know what it takes to get him busted, and they should know.

I'd say report him to his employers, but he'd probably still be able to get another job working with children somewhere else.
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eotunun
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PostPost #4  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

James Blast wrote:
roommates are odd creatures, I knew a guy who got his knob caught in a hoover, he slipped as he was putting vaseline on a burn he got and Whoosh! the bloody thing clamped on...

And your rommate didn't enjoy watching you like that?
Laughing Sorry, I couldn't possibly pass this one..Mr. Green

On topic:
I think it's a good idea to think about getting somebody else to share the flat with.. If only for the fact that the IP you (probably) used as well was looking for such stuff. Underage pron very probably is similarly illegal just about everywhere in the world. Prosecuters won't be able to tell whether it was you or him looking for that stuff.
Time for you to act, methinks.
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DancingtheGhost
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PostPost #5  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the help so far! I've already gotten out of there. Just packed my things & left while he was away for the weekend. And to think, I discovered this while logging onto here! Thank God for HL or I'd still be thinking he was a sane, normal person Crying or Very sad I will look into what you suggested, 7anthea7. (hope I got that right, apologies if I didn't).
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Ozpat
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PostPost #6  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You're thinking is right otherwise it would not bother you. Gutt feelings never lie.

I'd have a talk with the person about this disgusting stuff. His responsibilities regarding the job he has and that you do not feel fine about it. Problem awareness. Reporting is a big step.

Some people need to be pointed in the right direction. If he won't listen; stop being roommates and report the bastard. Cartoon/anime stuff is probably not illegal but that is where it starts with. It might get worse...as will your gutt feeling...

Good luck!
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DancingtheGhost
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PostPost #7  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks ozpat. As I said, I'm out of there already. As for talking to him...I'd probably castrate/kill first, talk later. My temper isn't the coolest when it comes to certain things.
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mh
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PostPost #8  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Legal-wise, I don't know the state of things in the US or elsewhere, but I do know that here (Ireland) even cartoon stuff is classified as child porn (working in IT security can be a barrel of laughs at times...). Whether you decide to go down that route is up to you; my feeling is that while on one hand you're better off cutting your losses and getting out, on the other if he's ever caught you may be implicated from having been his roommate, so some ass-coverage on your part might not do any harm.
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7anthea7
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PostPost #9  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mh wrote:
Legal-wise, I don't know the state of things in the US


There's no federal statute; it varies from state to state.

Ass-covering is definitely a good idea - and making contact with a child protective agency or some such would be a step in the right direction.
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DancingtheGhost
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PostPost #10  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

@ mh...thanks. that was a major concern, as I did use his computer a few times. There is no official record of me having been his roommate, as the sneaky bastard never put my name on the lease. Some sort of control issues. However, I did use the computer to check my bank account, email, etc. So, that would show up if it was examined, even with me deleting the websites from history, I'm thinking. Sometimes I wish I had just kept coming here through doing the web search Neutral Knowledge isn't always a good thing.
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silentNate
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PostPost #11  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Anime is a legal gray area but his behaviour sounds concerning. I find it sad that you are not able to speak to him yourself and raise concerns but by leaving you may have done the right thing Confused
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Ozpat
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PostPost #12  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

DancingtheGhost wrote:
Thanks ozpat. As I said, I'm out of there already. As for talking to him...I'd probably castrate/kill first, talk later. My temper isn't the coolest when it comes to certain things.


Ah, right....just missed that post. Hmm.....Still bothers you.
Well.....report him to his employer. They will probably not be
able to do anything without prove but he might be warned then and
so is the employer. Some things might not stay unnoticed.

Maybe he needs some postcards for Xmas; not being the ones from above the chemist. Twisted Evil
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darkparticle
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PostPost #13  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Instead of dancing around a shade of the subject, why not paint your house mate a picture coloured with your thoughts and feelings on the matter?

Take it from there, unless he silences you... Smile
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stufarq
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PostPost #14  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It depends on which country you're in. Most countries only outlaw pornographic images involving real children as cartoons don't involve any actual abuse of real people. There's also an argument that this sort of thing could prevent child abuse by providing a safe outlet for people whose sexual preferences, frankly, aren't going to change. There are even reported cases of people who stopped using pornographic images of real children by ony using animated ones. However, it's obviously still very controversial.

A handful of countries have passed laws specifically outlawing animated child pornography and the US is among them. There have been prosecutions in the US under the law. Australia, Canada, South Africa and Sweden have also banned it and Holland and the UK are considering it.

I was going to post a wiki link with more details but it contains a non-explicit cartoon image of three children in underwear so I decided to err on the side of caution.

If it's illegal in your country then it's pretty cut and dried. If not, then there's still the issue of the person working with children. It would be a pretty grey area considering the lack of legislation but it wouldn't seem to be an appropriate situation. I'd suggest a visit to your local police child protection officer or whatever your country's equivalent is. They'll be able to advise you as to whether the workplace should be informed.
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Norman Hunter
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PostPost #15  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Alternatively, me and Weebles will be round in the morning to sort out the sick f**k Evil or Very Mad
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DancingtheGhost
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PostPost #16  Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

@darkparticle....hopefully my leaving without saying a word gave him a hint that I was upset about something. As for him "silencing" me, that isn't as farfetched as it may seem. Though I can handle myself well in a fair fight (for a female who weighs less than 100lbs), I don't know if I can run fast enough to avoid a gunshot. Not kidding.

@stufarq....many thanks for the info. As I am in the US, I guess there's a chance the authorities may do something. I'll start looking into it on Monday, as most offices are already closed where I am. Will keep my fingers crossed that I don't get in hot water for using the damn computer. If I had known what was on there, I'd never have used it.
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nodubmanshouts
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PostPost #17  Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

DTG. how did you actually find this stuff out? Because taking a peek on his computer is classed a felony (on your part), not to mention throwing yourself open to a civil case.

I think the police would have a very hard time getting a conviction for anime porn... freedom of expression, etc, etc. Some states may have something against it, like Arizona (where oral sex is still illegal, I think), but depending on the content, he could argue its adult characters dressed up weirdly. And I'm sure his lawyer could make a really good case on that. Plus, would these Incest wbsites really be incest, or just make believe (younger looking 18+ girl, with 50+ guy?)?

I would let it lie, but the fact he works with children which is worrying. You're between a rock and a hard place, my dear. Just be aware there could be some very big personal consequences for you personally, if you go to the authorities, which could seriously affect you for the rest of your life. Neutral
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weebleswobble
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PostPost #18  Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Norman Hunter wrote:
Alternatively, me and Weebles will be round in the morning to sort out the sick f**k Evil or Very Mad


Yup, he works with kids for that alone the authorities need to be notified.
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stufarq
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PostPost #19  Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

nodubmanshouts wrote:
DTG. how did you actually find this stuff out? Because taking a peek on his computer is classed a felony (on your part), not to mention throwing yourself open to a civil case.

I think the police would have a very hard time getting a conviction for anime porn... freedom of expression, etc, etc. Some states may have something against it, like Arizona (where oral sex is still illegal, I think), but depending on the content, he could argue its adult characters dressed up weirdly. And I'm sure his lawyer could make a really good case on that. Plus, would these Incest wbsites really be incest, or just make believe (younger looking 18+ girl, with 50+ guy?)?

I would let it lie, but the fact he works with children which is worrying. You're between a rock and a hard place, my dear. Just be aware there could be some very big personal consequences for you personally, if you go to the authorities, which could seriously affect you for the rest of your life. Neutral

There have been convictions in the US for exactly this offence, based on a Supreme Court ruling. Here's what the Wiki article says on the US legal status:

Wikipedia wrote:
United States
The Supreme Court of the United States decided in 2002, and affirmed in 2004, that previous prohibition of simulated child pornography under the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 was unconstitutional.[70] The majority ruling stated that "the CPPA prohibits speech that records no crime and creates no victims by its production. Virtual child pornography is not 'intrinsically related' to the sexual abuse of children."

On 30 April 2003, President George W. Bush signed into law the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law)[71] which again criminalizes all forms of pornography that shows people under the age of 18 regardless of production. The Act introduced 18 U.S.C. 1466A "Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children", which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" (the third test of the Miller Test obscenity determination).

In December 2005, Dwight Whorley was convicted[72] under 18 U.S.C. 1466A(a)(1) on twenty counts for receiving "...obscene Japanese anime cartoons that graphically depicted prepubescent female children being forced to engage in genital-genital and oral-genital intercourse with adult males."[73] At the time of the violations, Whorley was on parole for earlier sex crimes, although the ensuing convictions were independent of his violation of the terms of the parole. He was also convicted of possessing child pornography involving real children.[74] Later, U.S. Attorney's Bulletin, which was requested in November 2006 by the Freedom of Information Act, describes the repercussions of this conviction. It recommends that the precedent set by the Whorley case be used as a basis for future prosecutions for possession of such obscene cartoons.

On April 6, 2006, the arrest of one Michael Williams for child pornography was upheld by the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in United States v. Williams, but the portion of the arrest which pertained to the PROTECT Act was overturned. Specific cartoon depictions of what appears to be a minor engaging in overt sexual intercourse (not merely sexually explicit) were deemed insufficient to actually fulfill the requirements of the PROTECT Act, as the content described in subsections (i) and (ii) of 2252A(a)(3)(B) is not constitutionally protected, speech that advertises or promotes such content does have the protection of the First Amendment. Accordingly, 2252A(a)(3)(B) was held to be unconstitutionally overbroad. The Eleventh Circuit further held that the law was unconstitutionally vague, in that it did not adequately and specifically describe what sort of speech was criminally actionable.[75]

The Department of Justice appealed the Eleventh Circuit's ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court. The case review docket is listed as 06-0694 and was scheduled for October 30, 2007 on the 2007-2008 schedule.[2][dead link] The Supreme Court heard arguments on the case and overturned the Eleventh Circuit's ruling 7-2 with Justices Souter and Ginsberg dissenting. The court stressed that virtual child pornography remained under the protection of the First Amendment, except when it was offered or solicited under the mistaken impression that actual children were depicted.[76]

In February 2007, Senator John McCain introduced S.519, which would add a mandatory 10-year prison sentence to anyone who uses the Internet to violate the PROTECT Act.[77]

By October 2008,[78] the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund became involved in a case defending an Iowan comic collector named Christopher Handley, with Eric Chase of the group operating as his legal consultant.[79] This is related to obscenity charges involving pornography depicting minors, being applied to a fictional comic book. Judge Gritzner was petitioned to drop some of the charges.[80] The motion was initially heard on June 24, 2008 [81] but was not widely publicized prior to the Fund's involvement.


I'm not familiar with US laws on data protection but if they're anything like European laws then I doubt that simply using someone else's PC and following the links in Favourites would be seen as a crime. You'd have to access private information. However, Dancing the Ghost could ask about that when visiting whichever child protection agency she chooses next week. I don't think even the police would make much of a deal about it considering what's being reported and they could advise as to whether there's any possibility of civil action.
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sandy666
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PostPost #20  Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The simple answer to this is to report this to the proper authorities (the police).

It is for the courts to decide whether the material this person is looking at is illegal and whether he is guilty of an offence or not and nobody else.

An investigation must be carried out with due regard to correct legal procedure. If it turns out this peson is looking at material that is legal, then the investigation will come to that conclusion and legal proceedings will cease. If he is looking at illegal material, then he will be duly punished.

Reporting it to the employer is not a good idea as the employer does not have the authority to conduct an investigation and may leave you open to accusations of slander- especially if the material he is looking at turns out to be legal.

From your point of view, it will also be better. It is not your responsibility to conduct an investigation, or carry the guilt/insecurity about whether you should do something or not.

As someone who works with young adults, I have been trained to report these things, whether I believe them to be true or not. This is to ensure that proper legal procedure is followed and that the young person is protected.

For your sake, I would urge you to report this to allow an investigation to happen.
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nodubmanshouts
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PostPost #21  Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I may be reading this wrong - I hire lawyers so I don't have to speak legal - but isn't stufarq's quote saying virtual comic child pornography is NOT illegal?:

Quote:

The court stressed that virtual child pornography remained under the protection of the First Amendment, except when it was offered or solicited under the mistaken impression that actual children were depicted.


Accessing a protected computer is a felony. Unfortunately, just about any computer is now classed as protected, due to the ancient definition of the term, using a computer to access PayPal or Email makes it protected. Would they prosecute or not? I don't know.
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darkparticle
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PostPost #22  Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

hey DancingtheGhost sounds like you've made the best move already. Don't struggle with the dilemma, let the law work out the finer details of what is or isn't on his computer. Morally you do what you gatta do
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7anthea7
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PostPost #23  Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

nodubmanshouts wrote:
I may be reading this wrong - I hire lawyers so I don't have to speak legal - but isn't stufarq's quote saying virtual comic child pornography is NOT illegal?


It has bounced back and forth, due to differing interpretations of law in different jurisdictions. Depends on how far something gets appealed as to the eventual outcome.

A semi-relevant tangent: I just read a BBC headline to the effect that the defendant in the MySpace case was "cleared of cyberbullying" when that wasn't the actual charge, since there were no laws of that sort in effect at the time. I'm sure the jury would like to have locked that cow up for the rest of eternity, but they had to answer to the charges as stated, which had to do with access of a computer.

Quote:
Accessing a protected computer is a felony. Unfortunately, just about any computer is now classed as protected, due to the ancient definition of the term, using a computer to access PayPal or Email makes it protected. Would they prosecute or not? I don't know.


In such a case, they would have to prove intent to defraud, identity theft, or some such action unrelated to the actual issue at hand. The police certainly wouldn't bother with it otherwise. Dancingtheghost would, at most, be open to a civil libel or harassment suit, although, under the circumstances, it would be ill-advised on the part of the roomie (we all know how well that worked for Oscar Wilde). As long as she had permission to use the computer, and did not access, or attempt to access, password-protected accounts; as long as his bookmarks were visible in a browser she could access without hacking it, he wouldn't really have a leg to stand on. The more likely problem would be that, as she has no other evidence of possible criminal behaviour, no solid grounds exist for seizure of the computer, so anything she has seen couldn't be used as justification for arrest, or even to obtain a warrant.

I don't know exactly what the labour laws are in her area, but in most of the US, when a former employer is contacted by a potential new one, the most the former can do is to confirm or deny that someone was employed by them. Again, it's a question of opening themselves up to lawsuits if anything is said that could be interpreted as defamatory. This is why I didn't suggest informing the employer right off the bat - if they attempt to discipline or terminate him, he can just go elsewhere, and/or can retaliate against them (and Dancing, if he figures out she's in any way responsible), so there's not much can be actively done at present. However, professionals who have dealt with this sort of thing before should be able to coach her in ways of following up on her suspicions, if only by way of observation, so that any further escalation in his activities would be noted.

The other strategy would involve whether or not she knows some really talented hackers... Twisted Evil
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markfiend
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PostPost #24  Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Report it to the police, let them worry about it.
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PostPost #25  Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

he's a wrong 'un, regardless of the law. and even if it's not illegal, if he comes into contact with children through his job then his employers should be told about it. or you could just torture him.
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