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Far Parade
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Being645
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PostPost #101  Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Being645 wrote:
I like the "Car ...is burning at the mine", but only since Detonation Boulevard is already there.

Meanwhile I've read a lot about cars indeed burning at ever smouldering mines ... an interesting view ... and an interesting expression ... We are not worthy!

Quote:

... perhaps a blank line after the "calm"? I wonder, but I feel a break there.

Can do without a blank line there, now, and easily mirror the whole verse ... Mr. Green

I note the repetition of "there is a curve that I don't know" in the final verse is gone and I miss it, because ...
I don't know it, either ... but I know it's there, always been and, time and again, everybody can touch it ... without an exception.

No doubt , I do like the change of order between Far Parade and Arms on the official site. We are not worthy!
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PostPost #102  Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

LouLou wrote:
here's what Back in time posted under the thread for the Zagreb gig:

Back in time wrote:

NO Far Parade, we had a chance to talk to Ben in the afternoon (well jost 7 did) and he claims that lyrics are done, but music is not finished and not rehearsed, so again I do not believe we will hear it soon.


although i do have my doubts about the lyrics being finalised. not with Our fearless leader! 's track record with, ummm...., "lyric stability" anyway Laughing

Thankee.
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PostPost #103  Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

paint it black wrote:
FarT Parade is now at Rev3.0. just in case


Rev4.0
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James Blast
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PostPost #104  Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

how dull...
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PostPost #105  Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

James Blast wrote:
how dull...


Try D******n then, for some variety: tedious! Wink
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PostPost #106  Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

No, seriously... think about the way we're treated?

He's had my groats (livewise) I'm not going to waste my time on "might~be, might~not" words for an inaudible tune, I have You Could Be the One on the Blaast!Box richt noo. Love is fine but this tune is "all I need".

and I ain't grabbing at so many straws these days Mr. Green
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Moakahontas
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PostPost #107  Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Erm..well..please excuse my very bad english. I hope, anyone will see/ read the meaning of all that I have to say..

I guess, its just my opinion and I dont know if Im right so far, when anyone just would hear with his heart, he would find out, what far parade means..Most people just listen with their ears..you know what I mean? I think that Andrew is very open in his lyrics. But its not immediately obvious in every way. One cannot rule out the possibility that anyone here is 100% right ..but.. as far as I'm concerned, I have an very clear picture about that far parade thing.. like everyone here...but..are you sure, you listen and see with your heart? If you do so, then it would be so clear to you all..It makes a broad difference between listen with your ears or even your heart..

..its just my own opinion..erm..well..


Weitermachen! Wink


Andrew..would you please help me out of here? Thanks a lot..
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PostPost #108  Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think I know what you mean, or if I don't, this post of yours has served me as food for thought anyway. The thought is not just about "Far Parade", it's about the Sisters lyrics in general.
You know, Eldritch is a sensitive, artistic soul. As an artist, he needs a workshop to materialise his ideas, right? And I think that he chooses the imagery, the multiple references, the cryptic hidden meanings, because these are his tools of choice, and when he is using those tools, he feels confident and comfortable within his workshop. But The Meaning put across by means of those tools is probably an entirelly different story. I wouldn't dare to try to decipher it (in fact I'm inclined to think that the artist himself is the only person who has the right to do it). So in order to explain what I mean I'd rather use an unrelated example. I used to paint some time ago, quite a lot. My favourite tool was water paints, and my favourite image could be an eery, derelict building in the middle of nowhere. This was best portrayed as a factory from the communist era, now neglected, but still with the red-white communist slogans visible despite the rust. As result, my paintings were labelled as "socrealistic" and a lot of people assumed that I missed communism and was fond of it, others assumed that I hated communism and with my paintings I wanted to show all the pollution and decline caused by it... Sometimes, just for fun I would replace the communist slogan with some other words totaly unrelated to communism or the lack of it, and boy that would trigger interpretations upon interpretations... Laughing
Whereas in fact, the stark industrial image was just my tool of choice to convey the meaning which was: "I feel lonely here, and I think nobody loves me, baaaaaah." But yes, the only way to see it was to look with one's heart.
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Moakahontas
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PostPost #109  Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

_emma_ wrote:
I think I know what you mean, or if I don't, this post of yours has served me as food for thought anyway. The thought is not just about "Far Parade", it's about the Sisters lyrics in general.
You know, Eldritch is a sensitive, artistic soul. As an artist, he needs a workshop to materialise his ideas, right? And I think that he chooses the imagery, the multiple references, the cryptic hidden meanings, because these are his tools of choice, and when he is using those tools, he feels confident and comfortable within his workshop. But The Meaning put across by means of those tools is probably an entirelly different story. I wouldn't dare to try to decipher it (in fact I'm inclined to think that the artist himself is the only person who has the right to do it). So in order to explain what I mean I'd rather use an unrelated example. I used to paint some time ago, quite a lot. My favourite tool was water paints, and my favourite image could be an eery, derelict building in the middle of nowhere. This was best portrayed as a factory from the communist era, now neglected, but still with the red-white communist slogans visible despite the rust. As result, my paintings were labelled as "socrealistic" and a lot of people assumed that I missed communism and was fond of it, others assumed that I hated communism and with my paintings I wanted to show all the pollution and decline caused by it... Sometimes, just for fun I would replace the communist slogan with some other words totaly unrelated to communism or the lack of it, and boy that would trigger interpretations upon interpretations... Laughing
Whereas in fact, the stark industrial image was just my tool of choice to convey the meaning which was: "I feel lonely here, and I think nobody loves me, baaaaaah." But yes, the only way to see it was to look with one's heart.



I meaned far parde so far...
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Being645
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PostPost #110  Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Moakahontas wrote:
_emma_ wrote:
I think I know what you mean, or if I don't, this post of yours has served me as food for thought anyway. The thought is not just about "Far Parade", it's about the Sisters lyrics in general.
You know, Eldritch is a sensitive, artistic soul. As an artist, he needs a workshop to materialise his ideas, right? And I think that he chooses the imagery, the multiple references, the cryptic hidden meanings, because these are his tools of choice, and when he is using those tools, he feels confident and comfortable within his workshop. But The Meaning put across by means of those tools is probably an entirelly different story. I wouldn't dare to try to decipher it (in fact I'm inclined to think that the artist himself is the only person who has the right to do it). So in order to explain what I mean I'd rather use an unrelated example. I used to paint some time ago, quite a lot. My favourite tool was water paints, and my favourite image could be an eery, derelict building in the middle of nowhere. This was best portrayed as a factory from the communist era, now neglected, but still with the red-white communist slogans visible despite the rust. As result, my paintings were labelled as "socrealistic" and a lot of people assumed that I missed communism and was fond of it, others assumed that I hated communism and with my paintings I wanted to show all the pollution and decline caused by it... Sometimes, just for fun I would replace the communist slogan with some other words totaly unrelated to communism or the lack of it, and boy that would trigger interpretations upon interpretations... Laughing
Whereas in fact, the stark industrial image was just my tool of choice to convey the meaning which was: "I feel lonely here, and I think nobody loves me, baaaaaah." But yes, the only way to see it was to look with one's heart.



I meaned far parde so far...


... I'm with you ... couldn't see anything much to add here ... yes.
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7anthea7
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PostPost #111  Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

_emma_ wrote:
....I'm inclined to think that the artist himself is the only person who has the right to do it


We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy!


I always loathed deconstructing poetry in class. Evil or Very Mad Because I've been writing it myself for many years, and of course reading it for even longer, I'm well aware of the processes, and the purposes.

In my opinion, it's both presumptuous and pointless to try to determine what an artist (of any stripe) 'means'. The only thing that rates discussion is what they are attempting to do: what response they want to elicit, what emotions they are trying to evoke. That is certainly the point of true poetry, even if (possibly even especially if) it's based on personal experiences. It's an amusing exercise to attempt to determine what might have inspired particular references, but in the end it doesn't get you any closer to what they wanted to say.

Von himself has always contended that his lyrics are 'oblique' rather than obscure, with which I tend to agree - and I suspect that obliquity is to some degree what drives people to try to determine exactly what he 'means'. The problem is that what they end up doing is trying to reduce it to facts: 'oh, he's referring to this here, and to that there.' That completely overlooks the possibility (probability?) that his meaning is not necessarily inherent in their prosaic reduction. If all he wanted to do was convey information, it could be accomplished in a much more straightforward manner, the way most lyricists choose to work. Actual poetry, on the other hand, often has different ends. And we all know that he's inspired by writers who are anything but prosaic.
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PostPost #112  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

7anthea7 wrote:
_emma_ wrote:
....I'm inclined to think that the artist himself is the only person who has the right to do it


We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy! We are not worthy!


I always loathed deconstructing poetry in class. Evil or Very Mad Because I've been writing it myself for many years, and of course reading it for even longer, I'm well aware of the processes, and the purposes.

In my opinion, it's both presumptuous and pointless to try to determine what an artist (of any stripe) 'means'. The only thing that rates discussion is what they are attempting to do: what response they want to elicit, what emotions they are trying to evoke. That is certainly the point of true poetry, even if (possibly even especially if) it's based on personal experiences. It's an amusing exercise to attempt to determine what might have inspired particular references, but in the end it doesn't get you any closer to what they wanted to say.


We are not worthy! You just managed to say what I've been trying to tell people for years - what the lyricist is attempting to do, what they are trying to evoke, not what exactly they are trying to say. I've never been able to describe the lyrics, put it into words but that's just it - I've always thought his lyrics were more evocative than explanatory, and in that sense it is pure poetry, certainly more so than most other rock lyrics out there. I think the music complements the lyrics perfectly as well, they definitely go hand in hand for me.

7anthea7 wrote:

Von himself has always contended that his lyrics are 'oblique' rather than obscure, with which I tend to agree - and I suspect that obliquity is to some degree what drives people to try to determine exactly what he 'means'. The problem is that what they end up doing is trying to reduce it to facts: 'oh, he's referring to this here, and to that there.' That completely overlooks the possibility (probability?) that his meaning is not necessarily inherent in their prosaic reduction. If all he wanted to do was convey information, it could be accomplished in a much more straightforward manner, the way most lyricists choose to work. Actual poetry, on the other hand, often has different ends. And we all know that he's inspired by writers who are anything but prosaic.


I have a fun time trying to figure out, and reading other people's opinions on exactly what he is referring to in lyrics, but then I find it interesting how different people can interpret words in wildly different ways. When it comes to that sort of thing I'm much more interested in the "definite" references though, things like "one nine one four," the Eliot references, the "sand stretched far away" lyric borrowed from Shelley, etc. (of course you already said that, "It's an amusing exercise to attempt to determine what might have inspired particular references") I have my own ideas as to the actual meaning of certain lyrics but in no way do I think my interpretation is the absolute and definite answer, I agree with Emma that "the artist himself is the only person who has the right to do it" But that doesn't mean I can stop my own ideas from forming in my head, particularly when I've heard these songs so much that the music and lyrics are ingrained in my memory so thoroughly. Wink I have a hard time putting into words what certain songs mean to me, or even exactly what emotion or mood they evoke - maybe because for me, it's already in words, in the lyrics and music, far better than I could ever dream of expressing myself. This is just one reason why TSOM feel special to me, I've never heard anything else that moves me and makes me feel what this music does for me, and had so many different emotions and feelings expressed (or maybe more accurately, interpreted on my part) by one band/man, over the course of their entire career. The feeling I get from Vision Thing is completely different from that I get from Floodland, or The Reptile House EP, or the new material, etc. In that sense the lyrics are much more "real" for lack of a better word (or maybe there is one and I just can't think of it Embarassed ) in that they're not one dimensional, they approach the human experience, life, etc from many different angles and emotions. Which is why there is almost always a Sisters song I can play at just about any time that fits my mood.
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stufarq
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PostPost #113  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

But on the other hand, there are many writers and lyricists who say that they're happy for their words to mean whatever people want them to mean.

And many other artists do want their meaning to be transparent, particularly if they are trying to make a point or get a message across.

I think that if the words or images etc have been made public, everyone has a right to have a crack at understanding them. The writer is the only person who knows for sure what they mean but everyone has the right to try and decipher them as long as they don't try to caim that they have the definitive answer.
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PostPost #114  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

stufarq wrote:
But on the other hand, there are many writers and lyricists who say that they're happy for their words to mean whatever people want them to mean.

And many other artists do want their meaning to be transparent, particularly if they are trying to make a point or get a message across.


No argument from me, on either count.

And also wrote:
I think that if the words or images etc have been made public, everyone has a right to have a crack at understanding them. The writer is the only person who knows for sure what they mean but everyone has the right to try and decipher them as long as they don't try to claim that they have the definitive answer.


Of course everyone has that right. I just find it absurd and pointless in many cases - especially when people manufacture such tortured justification for their theories. But of course that's the basis of art criticism, innit? Wink My real issues are with those who do claim definitive answers. It's the absolute worst expression of academic (and of course amateur) wankery.
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Being645
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PostPost #115  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I slightly remember Andrew saying in an interview in the 90s that he needed to be understood ...
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PostPost #116  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Being645 wrote:
I slightly remember Andrew saying in an interview in the 90s that he needed to be understood ...


Understood, yes - but not dissected like a ftal pig in formaline... Wink
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PostPost #117  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well,I love dissecting/deconstructing the work.I agree that the precise "meaning "isn't as important as the emotion,the feeling evoked by the words.But I love taking the lyrics apart and studying them-how one word echoes another-the music in the words themselves.
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PostPost #118  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Nadia81 wrote:
Well,I love dissecting/deconstructing the work.I agree that the precise "meaning "isn't as important as the emotion,the feeling evoked by the words.But I love taking the lyrics apart and studying them-how one word echoes another-the music in the words themselves.


Ah, what you're talking about is style, the writing itself, as distinct from any meaning, intended or otherwise. I've never had a problem with that - one of the ways to truly understand how good writing works is to take it apart bit by bit to see how it was constructed. My writer friends and I do this often in discussing things we've read - not just why but how it was a terrific piece, what it was about the way it was written that made it so. And that's something I appreciate about Von's lyrics - that they can be subjected to that sort of process and come up looking good. Most lyrics, when treated as 'poetry'...turn out to be facile and rather stupid in terms of technique. Neutral
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Being645
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PostPost #119  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

7anthea7 wrote:
Being645 wrote:
I slightly remember Andrew saying in an interview in the 90s that he needed to be understood ...


Understood, yes - but not dissected like a ftal pig in formaline... Wink


You've got the right to perceive things and people this way ... and to describe it this way ... Laughing

However, I slightly remember Andrew saying: I'm only the mirror ... Laughing Wink
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PostPost #120  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

7anthea7 wrote:
Of course everyone has that right. I just find it absurd and pointless in many cases - especially when people manufacture such tortured justification for their theories. But of course that's the basis of art criticism, innit? Wink My real issues are with those who do claim definitive answers. It's the absolute worst expression of academic (and of course amateur) wankery.

Ah, I see. In that case, I agree with you wholeheartedly. My particular bugbear is when critics ascribe "hidden meanings" to writers who would have been very surprised to hear about them. Oddly, they're usually dead writers who can't put the record straight.
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PostPost #121  Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

7anthea7 wrote:


In my opinion, it's both presumptuous and pointless to try to determine what an artist (of any stripe) 'means'.


Maybe I am taking this a little out of context, but I can not agree more. We are not worthy!
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PostPost #122  Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

stufarq wrote:
My particular bugbear is when critics ascribe "hidden meanings" to writers who would have been very surprised to hear about them.


Ever heard of this band called The Sisters of Mercy? Cause that sort of s**t seems to happen all the time with them... I swear, can't enjoy a sentence without apparently needing to dissect it. Wink
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PostPost #123  Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Dark wrote:
stufarq wrote:
My particular bugbear is when critics ascribe "hidden meanings" to writers who would have been very surprised to hear about them.


Ever heard of this band called The Sisters of Mercy? Cause that sort of s**t seems to happen all the time with them... I swear, can't enjoy a sentence without apparently needing to dissect it. Wink

Laughing
To be honest, in particular reference to "hidden meanings" I was thinking more of authors than lyricists. Songs and poetry are, by their nature, often more difficult to interpret because the words are constrained by meter, rhyme, set number of lines etc plus the need to have a heightened style. Novels, scripts etc tell a story that is usually meant to be pretty clear but there are people who will insist on telling you what the story is "really about". In some cases (particularly more recent ones written after this fad started) there may be something like that and, of course, metaphor and parable have always been common but usually in a form that was fairly obvious; but most fiction writers just write a story. If they've got anything to say, they won't go hiding it because then no-one will hear them say it. So Dracula isn't "about" syphilis; it's a horror story that may or may not include a syphilis metaphor. Through The Looking Glass isn't a political satire; it's a children's fantasy, for crying out loud (as the author was at pains to point out) although Lewis Carroll may have included a few sly references to amuse the adults who'd be reading it to them at bedtime.
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PostPost #124  Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Ehrenzweig, The Hidden order of art.
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PostPost #125  Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

greensunsets wrote:
Ehrenzweig, The Hidden order of art.


In PSYCHOANALYTIC AESTHETICS: THE BRITISH SCHOOL, Nicola Glover wrote:
Ehrenzweig acknowledges that there are some similarities between his own and Kris's account of art. For instance, Kris's view that during artistic activity, the artist can let his mind regress to primitive states and still remain in control, is very akin to Ehrenzweig's central hypothesis which emphasises that the 'diffuseness and vagueness and seeming emptiness of dream vision becomes in the artist's hands an exact instrument for controlling the complexity of art'. However, Ehrenzweig thought that the ego-psychologists were wrong in their relegation of the creative process to what amounts to a regressive, archaic activity - Kris's dictum of 'regression at the service of the ego'. He argues that what is missing in Kris's concept is the insight that creativity does not merely control the regression towards the primary process, but also the work of the primary process itself. What is central to Ehrenzweig's thesis is that the primary process turns its potentially disruptive effects into constructive ones; thus it is a highly efficient instrument for making new links and shaping more comprehensive concepts and images. Indeed, the unconscious and conscious matrices are not merely linked, surface thought is wholly immersed in the matrix of the primary process.


Cool. Cool
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